This week on The Rub...

Welcome to an exploration of intersectional identities, featuring those who live at the crossroads of race, gender, sexuality, and disability. This episode is a departure from The Rub's usual style, and we hope you enjoy this brief detour.

Here is the audio piece about addiction that inspired this episode: Life Left In Me

All audio is from interviews on Healwell's podcast "Interdisciplinary."

You can support The Rub and get early access to episodes, stickers, and more at patreon.com/TheRubPodcast.

Transcript:

Harry: 0:15

So let me start by saying that you know, if you can't see me, I live in a brown body. I'm of African and Native American descent. I'm six foot nine.

Frances: 0:28

For me, genderqueer is the term that sits most comfortably in my inner self, because I feel like what I do when I feel the most expressed in the world is mix it all up.

Chase: 0:43

It's not just for me about like being African American, or like being gay and like or part of the LGBTQ plus community I think those are pieces of me but also like being a psychiatrist.

Jennifer: 0:56

I am Black. I am Blackity Black. Okay, I love who I am. I love where I come from. No matter what my history says, I identify as a Black person.

Ro: 1:12

I'm a 31-year-old trans man.

Jamil: 1:15

And I was diagnosed with stage four metastatic breast cancer in 2018.

Bridget: 1:22

I am a clinical social worker, amongst other things.

Arika: 1:26

I'm a black cisgender indigenous woman and I'm, you know, I'm the daughter of an Ashkenazi Jewish woman and a black indigenous man.

Kayln: 1:37

One of the things that has shaped me a lot as a human are the humans that I live with. A lot as a human are the humans that I live with. I am a parent to two adult children One is autistic and functionally nonverbal and one is non-binary femme.

Frances: 1:52

If I've got people scratching their head, going hmm, what is this person? Then I know I'm in my sweet spot. I'm being seen in the world.

Chase: 2:03

So I have an earring and I got that the first summer after my first year of med school Because I was like you need to remind yourself to like rebel a little bit.

Jennifer: 2:11

I am a born leader. I am a born hell raiser, but I was also born into some mess and I had to figure out how to get out of it and still feel free.

Anna: 2:22

And I appreciate that you guys found me related to disability posts, which is sort of interesting because I have had lupus which is the primary cause of my disability. I have several autoimmune disorders but lupus is the big one.

Harry: 2:37

I'm a contemplative performance artist, a musician and a teacher and a writer and a meditation guide musician and a teacher and a writer and a meditation guide and I help people. I help people connect with their true nature as love and bring that love into all aspects of their life.

Frances: 2:53

I don't pass and I don't want to pass.

Chase: 2:56

But as time went on, I actually learned that the best thing for me was to be myself in the room.

Anna: 3:11

I was getting reprimanded when I got sick and ultimately that was going to be problematic for me and there was nothing I could do about it. I didn't have control over when I got sick. Lupus is unpredictable.

Frances: 3:21

As soon as you do something that makes me feel small and like you're in charge. You took my power and you made me feel small and it seems to be about your discomfort.

Anna: 3:32

Boom, you're not going to listen to me anyway, and I often have to say to people nobody feels worse about this than me. I am in too much pain to climb out of my bed today or I would have done it. Nobody feels worse about this situation than I do.

Chase: 3:47

The other thing is just code switching in and of itself and having to adapt it puts a different cognitive load on a person.

Jennifer: 3:54

When they are tired and fed up and lash out at you. Understand, it's from a place of. I've been doing this for years. I've been dealing with this stuff for years, I'm tired, I'm over it, and so it's not just you, it is the representation of what they have been dealing with.

Chase: 4:13

And that adds another like cognitive load, because you're having to like figure out how to fit in while also like doing well.

Frances: 4:20

The one that really gets me kind of dysphorically is when I catch myself being automatically willing to erase my identity.

Harry: 4:29

What do I do with that, you know? Do I live the next 30 years of my life completely broken in anger or frozen, or do I just become somebody who's always pretending with one of those fake smiling faces?

Frances: 4:41

Is it worth it? Do I want to tell this person? Do I want to correct this person? Is this environment a place where it even matters to me to be seen, and how am I gonna process the fact that I'm doing that on the inside?

Anna: 5:02

so the first, you know, the first thing for me is everybody has to be willing to put their ego aside and understand what you're actually saying is going on, because I think it's hard for people, whether they're, you know, nursing students or working nurses, even physicians, to really understand the impact of illness when you haven't experienced it.

Chase: 5:25

That means that that space is not safe enough yet for that person to be themselves. Yes, we all like code switch a little bit and we all like have different faces we wear. When it's becoming like the only face that that person is wearing and they don't feel safe to be themselves, think about having to hold all that in, but when you walked out the door, you didn't consider not coming home.

Frances: 5:46

You didn't consider that somebody wasn't going to want to be treated by you or somebody wasn't going to sit next to you, deciding which aspect of my identity is going to be present in the room and what choices I'm going to make about my expression that are going to support that, for whatever purpose I need.

Anna: 6:15

And he said to me are you trying to convince me? You have lupus? And I said yes, I've been saying this for a long time. He said I know you have lupus, you don't have to explain it to me. I believe you. And I broke down crying because it was just like having somebody say I believe you that you are actually experiencing all these horrible things.

Ro: 6:38

There was two hospitals that I could have had the surgery done at, and one was a women's hospital. I could have had the surgery done at, and one was a women's hospital, and, without even me asking, I was already put into the other hospital for the surgery, which was awesome.

Frances: 6:53

There was an all gender sign on the bathroom. There were little signs. You know there were rainbow flag and trans flag sitting in the tip jar or whatever at the counter. You know the signs were there and that was enough because I knew this is a place where the queers are and if you're queer, you know the importance of finding that.

Jamil: 7:31

James Baldwin used to say. Well, he did say that Black people know white people really well because we've had to really learn who white people were, because they were the power structure. We had to know how to navigate through these systems and society in all these public spaces really to save our lives. It was the survival.

Jennifer: 7:52

But it sounds like the whole system needs to change and we're clearly breaking down systems all over, so why not just keep going?

Jamil: 8:01

And if you think about just how we're still so segregated in our housing, in our schools, in our workplaces. If they aren't, if they are exposed to a Black person, it might be what they see in, maybe movies or something like that, and there's something that develops in their brain as to who this person is.

Bridget: 8:22

What are the possibilities for like just being aware of like wow, I exist in like basically only white spaces. That's who I cultivate relationships with. I maybe want that to be different, but how do I do that authentically and I don't have answers for people on that.

Harry: 8:39

One of the pathologies of American culture is based on domination.

Jennifer: 8:42

And I usually take implicit bias and put it right next to white supremacy, because white supremacy is the belief that your race as a white person, is superior to any other race and therefore you should have priority.

Harry: 8:55

One group lording it over another group, right. Whenever you have a culture like that, of course you don't take care of each other.

Arika: 9:00

We live in an individualistic society and we're all individualistic and we move away from each other and we don't create our communities and we don't do this and we don't do that. It's easier to control us.

Anna: 9:11

So I think you know we set this expectation and we don't talk about the fact that anything can change. Right? I didn't expect to get diagnosed with lupus.

Jamil: 9:22

Another aspect of white supremacy is perfection right, we need to be perfect at all things. At all times, you want to dress up and present yourself as professional as possible so that you're one of those acceptable people.

Bridget: 9:35

Why does professional me and my clothes have to look like this, or your clothes have to look like that, or we have to speak in this way? Who decided that?

Jamil: 9:41

Yeah, and when you think about it, it's challenging to say okay, I'm going to now shut down a system that has benefited me, my family, for generations.

Bridget: 9:54

And that's complicated because, like nobody wants to say, like I'm grieving the world where I was totally comfortable because I was incubated in my privilege, but you are.

Jennifer: 9:59

We are Every system that you felt comfortable in. You need to question.

Frances: 10:21

I can know the human condition of squirming and needing to like resist and you're having inner dialogue.

Arika: 10:23

That's not pretty and whatever. Those questions are not actually a question, but more like. I don't actually believe this and I need you to prove this to me.

Ro: 10:30

And I would say educate yourself. Go find a trans woman online and hear her point of view. Go listen to the actual voices of the folks that you want to help the actual voices of the folks that you want to help.

Jennifer: 10:48

My thing is just continue to educate and place yourself in those environments so that you can feel that natural connection.

Frances: 10:52

Because if you want to be a place where I can exhale, you need to know more about my existence and the existence of my community.

Chase: 11:01

If we treat each other respectfully. Like great, like you can ask me questions, I might tell you respectfully. Like great, like you can ask me questions, I might tell you, like hey, I don't want to talk about this aspect of myself right now, but it doesn't mean I won't want to talk about it later.

Frances: 11:12

If I can feel you listening, then I'll stay.

Jennifer: 11:23

You know, even if I didn't appreciate how it came out absorbing it, I understand the place that it came from and now I will do better the next time.

Ro: 11:30

Just like if you're using new pronouns for someone, you might make a mistake because it's so ingrained in your brain that you need to retrain it.

Arika: 11:39

I think that's why people will say like I haven't been trained in equity work, and I'm like, OK, neither have I. And, by the way, those training programs, that's not really training in equity work either.

Anna: 11:48

And I hear students say thank you so much for being vulnerable and human with us, because we're human too and we feel like we've got to be perfect all of the time.

Harry: 11:58

Through effort and practice and community and knowledge and feedback, we can retrain our brain to reclaim our true nature, beyond the fear.

Arika: 12:11

If you really want to do this work, you have to be willing to sit in that discomfort. And yes, there's going to be grief. That comes with that. Like just know that. But as humans we are so good at avoiding anything that's going to cause grief.

Ro: 12:25

So be easy on yourself, know that it's going to take some time for you to maybe start learning some of this language or to start moving into that uncomfortable space that's okay, but what we hear is people say well, I wasn't trained in that, I don't know how to do that. This is about retraining your brain. It's not going to come overnight. It never does.

Anna: 12:49

You need to center the person who's having the experience and not center yourself, which I think is a problem that we see in healthcare all the time People are like well, I'm not intentionally doing this.

Arika: 12:59

Well, I know I don't intentionally cause harm, but guess what I still do?

Jennifer: 13:03

We're not attacking people, it's attacking thought. You should want your thought to be attacked and tried and trialed so that you're making sure whatever you think you're doing, you're actually doing. I always talk about, you know, impact over intent.

Bridget: 13:19

How do we exist in this space that is depersonalized and yet so intimate? It's not about me. It's deeply about me. The awareness that comes from that place allows some softness, allows some flexibility to be real and honest and authentic about where we misstep. Honest and authentic about where we misstep.

Arika: 13:43

But to interrupt that shame spiral and say like, okay, how can I be accountable? And one of the ways that you can be accountable is that you apologize and you say I'm learning and I'm growing and I hope to do this better and thank you for holding me accountable yes, you can put a rainbow flag on your window and then it's like now I'm, I'm woke and I've got that, but do you know the obligation that you have signed on for them?

Kayln: 14:18

I?

Anna: 14:18

think sometimes people don't say anything because they're afraid they're going to say the wrong thing. So you know, you can always say I'm sorry that's happening to you, I'm here for you, I support you.

Arika: 14:28

Right. What does it mean to show up again with that humility?

Anna: 14:32

You know you could train anybody how to do technical skills, you can give anybody education about diseases, but it's being able to pull all that together and see the human being in front of you and care about the human being and accompany them through their healing journey.

Chase: 14:48

Who are the allies who actually stand up for me in the ways I need?

Jennifer: 14:52

And I understand the frustration with people calling themselves allies and then not being able to back up, but the fact of the matter is, the definition of ally is someone who is backing up a community in need.

Frances: 15:07

Don't oversell yourself. It is dangerous. You also can't just be an advocate if you don't understand what is needed from that marginalized community that if you can't back it up, you are actually making that person unsafe, because we come in with our guard down.

Bridget: 15:27

But those are the questions that maybe start to get you into, you know, a different world.

Anna: 15:32

Is there anything that we could do that would allow you to be able to fully participate in the way that you feel like you need to participate?

Jennifer: 15:39

You have an inclination to work with children, but do you really want to see all children and do you really see how all children are not being served the same way?

Chase: 15:48

The other thing I always think about is how many pictures of different types of families are there on the walls or like how do you show that we accept all types of body types here, all different types of people, all ethnicities, all religions? How is that seen in the office? How is that seen in the space that you're building?

Jamil: 16:07

You're not making eye contact, your body language makes it seem as if this person is a bother or a burden, or you're disgusted by them. How could this person trust you with their care?

Anna: 16:17

People who are disabled know what they can do. They will self-select. If you ask somebody, what can you do, what can I? What can we do to make sure that you're able to do this job? Are there accommodations that can be made? We know exactly what it is we need.

Chase: 16:33

Like when you have meetings, who is speaking? Who is given room to speak? Who is asked like directly to speak? Who talks over other people?

Kayln: 16:41

I think it's great that they at least have an awareness. Is it great that they're creating a policy? Yes. Is it great that they are asking and keeping an eye out? Yes, that's all great. And then the one more step is and now you're kind of using someone's personal lived experiences, but it is fundamentally advancing your career and not the other person's career. Look at your community.

Jennifer: 17:07

What is the makeup? What are your percentages? Because if you are in a predominantly white area, please don't just go get a Black person and bring them into your space, because that's going to be uncomfortable for them and for you, because you're not going to know what to do with them.

Chase: 17:16

I think the other thing is how do you actually talk about being minoritized or things like that? How do you have those discussions? Are there people in your office who are talking about those things already?

Jennifer: 17:27

Are there only people of color at the front desk and none in the back room? So what are you teaching kids when they walk into your clinic? That only people of color can work and be in the front and only this certain person can work in the back.

Chase: 17:40

There are so many kids who don't have safe spaces. There are adults who don't have safe spaces. One, how do we get to those people to help give them a safe space, but also them grounding themselves in their identity in the ways that they can and being gentle with themselves when there are certain things they can't show about themselves yet?

Bridget: 18:03

Part of how you act accountable is by slowing down, paying attention to your own body Before you say something, asking like where is this coming from? Why do I have anxiety in my body? Do I have some tightness?

Arika: 18:16

Let's start with the pause. What is the pause? Why is the pause? You know what is the pause. Interrupting the pause might be interrupting my brain saying.